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Last updated 08-31-10
On August 13 & 14 a man who goes by the name of Papa J. wrote arguing that the "We are of God" in 1 John 4:6 is "the apostle John & his associates." He also argued the "You are of God, little children" of 1 John 4:4 was not included in the "We are of God" of 1 John 4:6. Below was Darwin's last response to him regarding 1 John 4:6 and a little on election (bold not in original).
From: Darwin
To: cprtheology@sbcglobal.net
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: Back at you on 1 John
"We are of God" (1 John 4:6) is found only one other place in 1 John and that is in 1 John 5:19. There it clearly includes all believers.
You wrote, "The “hears us” is a reference to authority, not coming from the “little children.”"
This speaks directly against 1 John 4:4-6, as "us" in the immediate context includes "You" (as I pointed out). Yet, this speaks against not only the truth of 1 John 4:4-6, but that same truth which extends beyond just those verses. It speaks against Jude 3 in which all believers are to contend for the faith. If the truth of 1 John 4:4-6 does not apply to all believers, then this obliterates all believers authority and responsibility to content for the faith. The faith is Genesis to Revelation, and there is one (Ephesians 4:5), not many, as the ecumenical/essentials lie promotes (for that lie, see www.atruechurch.info/savednot.html).
This rejection of 1 John 4:4-6 also discards the authority and responsibility of all believers to cast "down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God" (2 Corinthians 10:3-5). It obliterates, for every believer, fighting this good fight (2 Timothy 4:7) and exposing any and all works of darkness (Ephesians 5:11) which would come against the Truth (John 14:6) of God's Word (Hebrews 4:12-13) on any matter within Genesis to Revelation.
It also denies, for the individual believer, the truth of 2 Timothy 3:16-17. Without the reality of 1 John 4:4-6, he is not complete with simply the Scriptures (as 2 Timothy 3:16-17 declares). He has no authority (1 John 4:6) to proclaim them and discern who is of the spirit of truth and who is of the spirit of error, as he watches others either hear or not hear the Words of God (John 8:47).
It is no different than the truth found in 1 John 2:3-5. Those who heed God's Word ("hears us") know Him. Those who do not heed His commandments ("does not hear us") are liars (1 John 2:4). "By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error" (1 John 4:6).
In other words, the truth of 1 John 4:4-6 is found elsewhere in the Word. I have not included all. It is not just 1 John 4:4-6 that reveals the authority of any believer as they proclaim His truth, as Christ lives in them (Galatians 2:20) and as the anointing teaches them (1 John 2:27).
Finally, this rejection of 1 John 4:4-6 reveals a rejection of the "way of truth" (2 Peter 2:2), for 1 John 4:4-6 displays the way of truth. This "way of truth" is the narrow way (Matthew 7:13-14) in which all believers are complete in Him (Colossians 2:8-10) and believe the same (1 John 4:6; John 8:47; 10:27). Rejecting and not believing in the "way of truth" is rejecting the way of salvation (John 14:6 "Truth"). It is rejecting the narrow way (Matthew 7:13-14). It is rejecting His Word which equals rejecting Christ (Christ is the Word, John 1:1). This kind of behavior results in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8 "unbelieving"). For more detail on this way of truth, see www.atruechurch.info/unity.html & www.atruechurch.info/marksofacult.html
Regarding election, we believe every last little detail of existence is ordained by God, as it is written, "For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things" (Romans 11:36). He spoke everything into existence before it ever was (Isaiah 46:10). All things are upheld by His Word (Hebrews 1:3) and all consists in His Word (Colossians 1:17). Thus, He has chosen both individuals (e.g. Romans 9:11-13, 16-23; Malachi 1:2-3; Acts 9:15) and nations (e.g. Malachi 1:2-4; Romans 11:26) to either eternal damnation or eternal life, and anything and everything else that exists (Revelation 4:11) and happens (Isaiah 45:7; Amos 3:6; Lamentations 3:37-38) is His "counsel" and His "pleasure" (Isaiah 46:10; Psalm 115:3) spoken into existence "before time began" (2 Timothy 1:9), for the Word has always been (Psalm 119:89; John 1:1).
Papa J. wrote a 4.5 page response to the above. Below is Darwin's response to his rebuttal concerning 1 John 4:6.
From: Darwin
To: cprtheology@sbcglobal.net
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: Yap, I'm back to sharpen more iron.
The "we" in 1 John 1:1-5 is obviously limited to those who heard, saw, and physically ("hands") handled the Word of Life (Christ). 1 John 1:6 and following reveals John uses "we" in a broader sense after 1 John 1:1-5. Thus, the whole book is not limited to the narrow "we" of 1 John 1:1-5. 1 John 1:6 and following makes that clear.
With that understood, nowhere in 1 John 4:1-7 (or the greater context thereof) does the writer give any statement that dictates it is limited to the narrow "we" of 1 John 1:1-5 as you claim. That concept you have added to the text (Proverbs 30:5-6). The qualifier for John's statement in 1 John 4:6 is given in the verse itself. The qualifier for who the "We" and "us" are in 1 John 4:6 is given. It is "are of God" (and, as I explained, the "You" of 1 John 4:4 is included in the "are of God" category as explicitly stated). To claim that the "We" is anything more or less than those who "are of God" is a denial of the very text itself that gives its only qualifying statement, and that qualifying statement is, "are of God." John defines who "We" are with "are of God." This is what you deny. You deny 1 John 4:6 applies to those who "are of God," just as it declares. To limit that to claim it only applies to certain ones who "are of God" is unfounded in that section, no, nor does 1 John 1:1-5 mandate that either, since shortly thereafter John broadens the "we" in 1 John 1:6. In order to narrow the "we" in 1 John 4:6 down to only those spoken of in 1 John 1:1-5 the text itself must demand that. On the contrary, what 1 John 4:6 demands, via verses 4-6, is that it is speaking of just what it says, those who "are of God." That includes any and all believers who "are of God" (all true believers "are of God," 1 John 4:4).
You wrote, "Now as said in my earlier reply, heresy through the Gnostics had affected the “little children” and yet another reason why "hears us” can’t refer to those John was writing to!" And from an earlier email you wrote, "We know those John was speaking about were the Gnostic’s . . . ."
This is adding to the word of God (Proverbs 30:5-6). The Gnostics are nowhere to be found in the Biblical text (nowhere in the entire NT). Deceivers are indeed mentioned (1 John 2:26), but to claim (as you have done) those deceivers were Gnositcs is adding to God's word (Proverbs 30:5-6).
Earlier you wrote, "There is a large collection of Gnostic writings from the time John wrote . . . ."
First of all, this is not a fact. You have believed it, because you have believed what you are told (Proverbs 14:15). There is nothing that proves those writings were even around in John's time, nothing, that is, but man's guess work and "scientific" ideas ("what is falsely called knowledge," 1 Timothy 6:20) which prove nothing. Second, even if they were around during John's time, that does not prove "the Gnostics had affected the “little children”." Nor does it prove "John was speaking about . . . the Gnostic’s." You assume all of this upon the text (Proverbs 30:5-6).
It's evident you believe in interpreting the Bible via extra-biblical history. We do not, as Scripture says not to add to His word, and Ecclesiastes 1:11 says,
"There is no remembrance of former things, nor will there be any remembrance of things that are to come by those who will come after."
We take extra-biblical history all with a grain of salt (so to speak). Newspapers are man's history which are only a day old, and they have lies in them already. We put no trust (as you have displayed) in words of men (Jeremiah 17:5) or supposed findings of men. The Biblical text is the only authority, and adding to it (extra-biblical history, writings, etc.) to interpret it is sin (Proverbs 30:5-6) and the way of deceivers (Colossians 2:8). Scripture is all any man of God needs to understand Scripture (2 Timothy 3:16-17; 1 John 2:27). Adding extra-biblical history, writings, etc. denies the completeness of 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (and Colossians 2:8-10), and it denies that Scripture alone makes a man "thoroughly equipped" for "doctrine" (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Doctrine = teaching = a "good work" ("thoroughly equipped for every good work" 2 Timothy 3:16-17). It is a good work to teach, that is, proclaim correct doctrine. This can only be done via Scripture alone for understanding Scripture. In His light we see light (Psalm 36:9). Extra-biblical writings of men are not light (Jeremiah 17:5, 9).
You wrote, "It’s not the authority of you or any believer unless they are rightly dividing the Word of Truth."
You say, "unless." Then you admit it is the authority of any believer who rightly divides the Word of Truth. This is what I said. I wrote (immediately before your above statement),
"1 John 4:4-6 . . . reveals the authority of any believer as they proclaim His truth."
It is indeed qualified by "as they proclaim His truth," as they "rightly divide the Word of Truth."
You wrote, "but again the “hears us” is not referring to your or any body of believers who follow what they believe is the truth, but the truth itself, ‘God’s Word.’"
You fail to realize the church (the true body of believers) is the "pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15). The church (the true body of believers) is any assembly of believers (not just ours) that faithfully follows the Word of God. Those who oppose the church (the true body of believers) oppose "the pillar and ground of the truth." In other words, those who oppose the church (the true body of believers) oppose the Truth (Jesus Christ, John 14:6). This is the truth of 1 John 4:6.
You wrote, "it appears you are saying the same thing the Church of Christ, and the Jehovah’s Witnesses say about themselves."
They would be correct if they were faithfully believing and preaching the Word of God, because this is indeed what the Bible teaches. There are not many true faiths (denominations). There is only one (Ephesians 4:5). There is only one God (Ephesians 4:6), and He is a Man (Genesis 32:22-30; Exodus 3:15); two Men (John 8:17-18; Daniel 7:9-14); and a City (Psalm 48:12-14; Jeremiahs 33:16). There is only One Spirit (Ephesians 4:4), and He is Seven Spirits (Zechariah 4; Revelation 1:4; 4:5; 5:6). Any other God is false. There are not many ways and truths, there is only One, and that is the truth of the Bible (John 14:6). Jesus Christ is the Truth (John 14:6). He is God. He is Scripture (John 1:1, 14; Galatians 3:8; Hebrews 4:12-13; Revelation 19:13). Faith in Him = faith in Genesis to Revelation. All believers believe the same thing (the Bible). They hear God's word (John 8:47). They all hear His voice and not another (John 10:4-5).
This discussion proves your lost state. You have not found nor accepted this narrow way (Matthew 7:13-14) of truth (2 Peter 2:2). For you wrote,
"John 8:47 & 10:27 . . . is again support for God’s Word coming from our Lord and His Apostles, not a church body made up of men who believe . . . "
God's word comes from "the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15), the church, as well, and the "pillar and ground of the truth" is made up "of men who believe" His Word and proclaim it (2 Corinthians 4:13). John 8:47 & 10:27 is "support for God's Word coming from . . . a church body made up of men who believe," for the truth they proclaim came "from our Lord," the Scriptures, God Himself. Every true believer is "of God" and "hears God's Word" (John 8:47). Every true believer follows Him (as in John 10:27). That's why every true believer can say, "We are of God. He who is of God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error" (1 John 4:6).
Gary A. Hand (webmaster of ondoctrine.com) has maintained a web page entitled, "CONVERSATIONS ON CULTIC BEHAVIOR" at www.ondoctrine.com/conversa/3cult001.htm in which are posted emails from Darwin from a few years ago. He contacted us recently with an email address Darwin did not recognize, so Darwin didn't know who he was dealing with at first. Also, for a reason unknown to us, as of 8-26-10 Mr. Hand had not updated the above page to include this most recent discourse. Below is most of the conversation (minus his last email, which was more of the same).
From: chriscroth@aol.com
To: feedback@atruechurch.info
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 4:35 PM
Subject: Wolves in Sheeps clothing
After perusing your web site i was astonished to see that you labeled Chuck Smith, Larry Taylor and Let Us Reason Ministries as basically heretics,15 years ago i sat under Pastor Taylors teachings at Calvary Chapel Bible College,Chuck Smith is my Pastor and ive worked with and been friends with Mike Oppenheimer of Let Us Reason Ministries for over a decade in Hawaii.
As an apologist and teacher of comparative religions i consider myself well versed in historic Christianity and can say without hesitation that your completely wrong about numerous individuals on your site.To make matters worse you claim the same things as well known cult figures,Joseph Smith and Sun Myung Moon,and even David Koresh an "exclusivity to truth" A "Corner on true teachings"etc. thank the Lord that only a few gullible people have been duped by you and my prayer is that you repent of your harmful and destructive teachings.
God wont be mocked " a man reaps what he sows" continue in this course and im positive that God will deal with you personally.
From: Darwin, darwin@atruechurch.info
To: chriscroth, chriscroth@aol.com
Sent: Wed, Jul 28, 2010 12:53 pm
Subject: Re: Wolves in Sheeps clothing
Amen! God will not be mocked and He indeed will deal with me (Hebrews 4:12-13).
Do you believe I am on my way to eternal toment in hell? If so, would you care to quote what I have written and then quote Scripture to expose (Ephesians 5:11) my error that I might repent?
From: chriscroth@aol.com
To: darwin@atruechurch.info
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: Wolves in Sheeps clothing
Ok Darwin, lets start with this statement made on your website.
"No, I do not believe I am the only one on the planet who knows the truth (Jeremiah 35:19; Romans 11:5). God has his own, however many or few, wherever He may have them (e.g. 1 Kings 19:10, 18). Yet, I do not know, as of this date, any other preacher that is in the truth. Nor have I seen any in history other than those recorded in Scripture (see our report entitled, Believers Of The Past, What Should We Expect To Find?). Not that they have not and do not exist, but I am not familiar with any. But, wherever they may be, they would be in the same way as I am, believing the same things (i.e. God's Word), because there is only one way (John 14:6). Contrary to the lewd teaching (Jude 4) of false Christianity…..
This does not mean perfection in doctrine, but rather, obedience and compliance to the Word of God, particularly when confronted with it (1 Timothy 6:3-5). I have been corrected many times over from people both in and outside our fellowship (Proverbs 6:23)."
Darwin, Its obvious to me and many other beleivers in Christ that have examined your claims that you are severely deceived, you actualy believe that YOU are one of the only true teachers in all of Christianity. God waited 2000 years to reveal his true voice, meanwhile millions and millions of people have perished and went to hell prior to your glorious arrival here on earth.On your site you judge many Godly men then hypocritacly quote this verse in another place.
"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again".
One laughable error you mention on your site concerns Mike Oppenheimer of Let Us Reason Ministries
"Instead he has placed his trust in "ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY." And how does he define "ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY"? He describes it as "HISTORIC CHRISTIANITY," which for the most part is Catholic (see our report on the early church fathers). Catholicism has a great deal of false doctrine in it. Historical Protestantism is likewise not without serious error (e.g. Spurgeon). Paul warned against putting our faith in historical traditions
Darwin, in the mid-90,s Oppenheimer and i debated Jerry Mattatics, a renown Cathothic apologist over a two night period at a local Calvary Chapel in Hawaii, I know what Oppenheimer believes about Catholism. Your attacks against other Calvary Pastors need no response from me, others have sank your ship long ago from my brief search of your interactions with them. Darwin,your not original and apparently from the size of your congregation, not very convincing either. however, sadly your in good company
“Outside the true Christian congregation what alternative organization is there? Only Satan’s organization…”Jehovah’s Witnesses ”(Watchtower 3/1/1979 p.24)
Thus, outside the Church of Christ no one can be considered a true believer.'' Iglesia ni Cristo (PASUGO, September/October 1981, p.9)
"one can receive eternal life only through the true church.” True Jesus Church On 5. on the web
“There is one church! There is one God. There is one kingdom of God and this is it!" International Church of Christ (The Great Commission, audioHodge/Hamann/Fulcher/Fields)
“The “household” is God's Family or true church. It's the family that God rules. This is God's inner circle--His very elect...we are God's only true representative on this earth.” The Philadelphia Church of God (The Philadelphia Trumpet, p.1 May 1995
“If you question the group, you are persecuting Jesus." The Potter’s House:
' have personally observed the immaturity demonstrated by you and your adherents when you have engaged in picketing (activities) at Grace Community Church, and that immaturity is also reflected in the doctrines that you have created from you own mind. You have willfully chosen to remove yourself from biblical authority and church discipline, engaging in lawless behavior in relation to the Scripture, because you have established yourself as a law unto yourself, which you believe justifies every desire that results in an action or belief by yourself. Even when shown to be wrong, you are unteachable by your own choice. Sadly, you are in serious and continuing error, also by your own choice, and I have great fear for your soul.
The True Church is the one that Jesus Christ is building and He will build it perfectly according to His plan, with or without you, and what is true is determined by the Word as the revelation of God, and not by the self-proclaimed truth of Darwin Fish.
Since virtually no one that you know or has lived since the apostles, meets the intellectual, doctrinal and spiritual standards that you claim for yourself, it must be lonely at the top. But I am sure that you can keep yourself company by adopting the old saying, "When I speak to myself, I perceive the one speaking to be an intelligent man."
Sincerely,
Gary A. Hand
On Doctrine webmaster
Finaly Darwin, i leave you with this, " But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves" 2 Peter 2:1
From: Darwin
To: chriscroth@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 10:31 PM
Subject: Re: Wolves in Sheeps clothing
"The True Church is the one that Jesus Christ is building and He will build it perfectly according to His plan, with or without you, and what is true is determined by the Word as the revelation of God, and not by the self-proclaimed truth of Darwin Fish."
Amen!
"God waited 2000 years to reveal his true voice"
You show us all here by this statement you have no clue as to what we believe, even though the quote you gave states otherwise.
"you are unteachable by your own choice"
This well precludes any response I might have. Interesting statements though:
First email - "As an apologist and teacher of comparative religions i consider myself well versed in historic Christianity"
Second email - "I perceive the one speaking to be an intelligent man"
